SatAm and SU (Posts originally appeared at Mobius Forum) BLACKFOX WHAT'S YOUR FEELINGS ON SatAM + SONIC UNDERGROUND. OK peeps this is your chance to tell me what you realy feal about Sonic underground or SatAM or both me, I hate SU but I did like it once. up untill eposode 2 of the first searis. But I have always loved Sat AM. And I hope that it gets back on TV. BLACKFOX --- Mad max my feelings well I have seen a few SU and I did on like them, to meny songs and no storyline thas a far as i can see any way. As for SatAM I love it I have all of the 1st and 2nd seeons on vid' and i would love to see it retrune. LONG LIVE SatAM Mad Max --- MephitisLotor SatAM opinions... I still haven't seen one episode of SU; what I've heard about it hasn't been promising (Jaleel White as a female character??), but I still might find it enjoyable. As for SatAM, well... I did enjoy the series, or I wouldn't be here (nothing against SegaSonic, I just never had a chance to play it). I thought it had some appealing characters and a decent basic plot that occasionally produced really good stories. However, SatAM had its share of flaws as well, starting with (as Vector mentioned) Antoine. I ranted about Antoine on SatAM on Ken Penders's board a while back, but I can sum up my complaint in one sentence: Antoine shouldn't have been allowed to light a campfire, much less trusted to go on dangerous missions where the fate of his fellow Freedom Fighters, and possibly all of Mobius, rested partly on his shoulders. Someone as thoroughly incompetent as Antoine was portrayed in the TV series should never have been allowed to be part of a resistance movement; I don't know if there was a single thing that Antonie did to benefit the Freedom Fighters until almost the end of season 2. If "Sonic and Sally" hadn't been the first episode of SatAM I had ever seen, Antoine by himself might've been enough to drive me away from the series. (And most of the time I found him painfully unfunny as well, but that's a minor complaint.) I could gripe about other problems I had with the series (frequently trite dialog, some plots with ludicrous inconsistencies, the handling of Lupe and the Wolfpack), but I enjoyed the characterizations (except for Antoine) and the voice-acting (except for, oddly, Kath Soucie as Sally) enough to overcome any annoyance I might've had with occasionally mediocre writing. Last decade was a great one for TV animation, but I think I'd rank the Sonic SatAM series in the top 10 of the decade. Of course, your milage may vary (and probably does; most people here seem to either adore or detest the SatAM series). -- MephitisLotor, who did think Antoine was fairly amusing in "Sonic Racer"... --- Chuckie Chipmunk My opinions... Guess what, gang? Messa is back! Okay, you want to know my opinions? Ok, but hold on. It does bother me when somebody speaks bad about Sonic Underground and even more crap on AoStH,and not only was that a reason I wanted to leave, but I know I use to (and at most times, still do) talk bad about Archie and SatAM. I didn't want to say this, but that was another reason I wanted to leave: I thought I might have been an annoyance. Anyways, I'll talk with respect from now on about any Sonic series. SatAM: When I first saw the previews of it on TGIF (Hangin' With Mr. Cooper, methinks) I was like "Sonic's got his own show! Cool!" One in a while, if I was awake and channel surfing, I'd watch it. It wouldn't make alot of sense to me (I was about 8 or 9 at that time). Then many years later, I discovered the comic book, and reconised the SatAM cast. Then I saw it on USA Network with the AoStH series. That's when I became hooked on it. I've been a SatAM for 3 years, then I got dulled with it, and realized how much it was different from the SEGAsonic storyline, which I started to love ever-so-much in early 1999. While I still think it has good plots, storyline, and animation, it doesn't have my full instrest anymore. Sonic Underground: VERY excited when I got to see it the first time. I'm still getting used to it, but as of now, the only thing that bothers me are the songs. I support BOTH cartoons into getting a 3rd season, and getting it back on the air. ^^ --- Vector Neither is really a worthy adaptation. Both shows have their flaws. It's just that, IMO, SatAM is above-average for a saturday morning cartoon, while SU is below-average. I don't really think either of them have anything to do with Sonic. Independent of Sonic, they can be compared like independent cartoons. Both have strengths and weaknesses. SatAM obviously has the better animation, sound, voice acting, and drama. However, SU is MUCH more successful at bringing comedy into the series. I laughed out loud when I heard about Robotnik talking about how the camera adds 10 pounds. SatAM's attempt at comedy is the incredibly unfunny Antoine. Sorry Antoine fans, he sounds like a great character in Archie, but he was written very badly in SatAM. Obviously,SU has a lot of lame attempts at comedy, but I'll give them credit for having some success. Neither series really makes much sense. Musical instruments that turn into weapons? An Oracle who, despite supposedly being on the sibling's side, is actually the one who tells Robotnik about them, and prevents them from simply meeting the queen in the beginning because they should go on "a voyage of discovery" (yeah,right)? Well, there's plenty of room to go after SU in the "making sense" department. However, people have basically ignored the fact that the series are pretty much even here. SatAM has magical rings that float out of a lake. Even stranger is the fact that rings seem to be able to do all sorts of things that have nothing to do with being a power source, like restoring Uncle Chuck, or whatever. Then there's roboticization. Dare I say it,SU's version actually makes a lot more sense. In SatAM, they seem to be saying that the machine can make a working robot in the same shape as someone else. I can also see why someone would see the dark, depressing, atmosphere of SatAM and prefer the lighter SU. --- Troophead Nnnnnnnnnn ... I think the whole ring thing had something to do with the ring maybe overloading whatever kept Chuck in check. Or identifying his DNA unlocked something in his mind. I dunno, but it makes more sense and is a lot less lame than magic instruments. Same with roboticization. I thought that aspect was rather cool... and R did design a scientifically correct roboticizer.. it's in the fanfic section. IMHO, SatAM is a lot more fantasy-ish, and more beautiful in that way than the surrealistic style of SegaSonic. Sort of like in a way that Zelda or Saga Frontier 2 compares to say.. Final Fantasy 7 or Metal Gear Solid. Lord of the Rings to Star Trek. You get my point. They have nothing to do with each other, but they're nice in their own way. SU though, seems just to be imitating what's "cool", which bothers me, because they're using snazzy elements to attract an audience but no real substance. --- Vector You have a point And I suppose you're right. SU doesn't have a point, at least as far as I can see. SatAM does have a fantasy-style beauty and defintely gets you to care about the characters. I can't really think of anything to say in SU's favor, artistically at least. Of course, I haven't seen much of the show, so maybe someone who is a SU fan could come up with something. --- Samanfur the Fox Well... SatAM is a slightly cyberpunk-esque RPG done right. It could probably survive with Sonic removed, whereas I`m not sure that SU could. --- Sierra Ranay ::Rubs hands together:: Well, to tell the truth, I like BOTH series. SatAM and SU both have good storylines, but I have to say I like SU even moreso. The storyline, the music, the cute guys ::Sighs, "Manic!":: But I'm starting to get annoyed with some of the SatAM fans that go raving about how SU was cancelled. As Tim had said earlier: "Can't you guys state your opinions without having to go overboard? I mean, Chuckie's already gone because of that! --- Mobius Springheart Me? I love a good opinion quiz! Well, personally, SATam is special because it is the first program that made me want to get up at 7.30 in the morning to watch it! From the titles to the credits, it was a non-stop rollercoaster action blaster all the way... with rare moments to catch your breath! SU is a slow paced cartoon, with elements of Songs which drive me nuts, A lousy excuse for a story, and a cast that wouldnt look out of place in a bargain bin offer. I dont mind people who like SU...I just wont waste my time on it anymore... watched it, liked it, then grew to despise it... thats my answer! --- Samanfur the Fox Be careful what you say, MS. That`s not nice... >SU is a slow paced cartoon, with elements of Songs which drive me nuts, >A lousy excuse for a story, and a cast that wouldnt look out of place >in a bargain bin offer. I dont mind people who like SU...I just wont waste >my time on it anymore...watched it, liked it, then grew to despise it... Yes, the songs grate on me, too. No, the plot isn`t something that`s my style and I don`t find the cast particularly dynamic. But note the way that I`m phrasing this. You`ve just contradicted yourself. If you don`t mind people who like SU, then why have you just offended them by attacking their show? They obviously think that it has qualities that you don`t recognise, so you`ve no real place to criticise. You wouldn`t like it if they picked holes in your favourite continuity, so you can`t expect them to sit back and do the same. If you don`t like it, then why pay it any attention? That was dangerously close to an unprovoked bashing of SU, and we`ve had enough of those recently. This isn`t a flame or directed at you personally. In general, I know that there`s a very wide age group and range of etiquetttes on this Forum, but let`s do as we would be done by and think before we speak. Samanfur --- Troophead *cough* Coming from you...*cough* So he criticized the show. Like you said, respecting SU fans doesn't mean you have to be all campy about the show itself. He said he thinks the plot is slow, the song is annoying and the cast is bad. It's pretty much a given that if he says it in his post, it can be presumed to be his opinion without him saying "In my opinion" in the beginning. It's not much that different from what you said or how you said it. If other people think differently of the show, find by them. (And I still have yet to hear a good reason of why someone likes it from an SU fan.) --- Samanfur the Fox Frog in your throat, Troop? As I said in the post itself, that was _NOT_ aimed directly at Mobius Springheart. Maybe I just didn`t make that clear enough. >If other people think differently of the show, find by them. (And I still have yet to hear a good reason of why someone likes it from an SU fan.) My point in the first place. That makes two of us. --- Darosne He wasn't THAT offensive or self-contradicting, Samanfur All he said was that he hates the show, but he has no problem with people who like it. Just like I would never want to participate in a BDSM activity, but I have no problems with those that prefer that style. --- Samanfur the Fox I know. I never said that it was... As I said in the post itself, that wasn`t aimed at him personally. It was just a general remark about how a post like that _could_ be taken. If I caused Mobius Springheart any offencer, then that wasn`t intentional and I apologise. --- Mobius Springheart A formal apology. For the SU fans. Although I feel strongly that the cartoon is very 'Sub-par' I did not mean to cause any trouble over the content. If anyone felt offended, I apologise. I will quite happily support the SU petitions for the SU fans, and support any other SU movements...but I still can not stand the cartoon personally. I hope we cleared that up...and samanfur...you were justified in your opinion, but it did feel SLIGHTLY too aimed at my post...partially because it was. However...no offence on my part, and hopefully, no problems from the SU supporters part! --- The Oracle Re: Feelings on SATAM and SU I've only seen a few eisodes of SU, and I didn't like them much, why, oh why did they use the same guy for all 3 characters voices, and wouldn't Amy have been a better choise instead of Sonia? As for SATAM, I loved it, it really was great viewing, lets hope it will return soon. Oracle ------ ------ SolarTails SU. Blunder? or Missunderstood? Lemme get right to the point. I've seen a lot of talk on Sonic Underground. "It Sucks!" "It ain't that good." "Gimme SatAM anyday." The main downfall of SU's Popularity seems to be this: - First time you watched it: "Cool!New Sonic show. Wonder if it's like SatAM?" - Halfway through the show: "It's similar to SatAM, but corny." - At the End: "That sucked! SatAM was better." Figure it out? The big problemo is... *DRUM ROLL* "Comparison!" Think about it, most peeps who dun like SU are comparing it to SatAM. To really see the show, we gotta watch it as if we never saw a Sonic cartoon before. I ain't saying SU is great, but maybe we'd like it a little more if we stopped comparing. What are your feeling on this subject? --- Raygirl Thats what I think..... Wed Mar 1 12:49:11 2000 SU is the only Sonic cartoon I have seen exept 4 Aosth, and to me SU is much better!! --- True Red My turn... ...everyone has been posting their views on this SatAM/SU debate so I might as well finally join in. To avoid comparing SU to SatAM (yes I knew that I might do that), the first episodes of SU that I watched were episodes that Knuckles was in. I loved those two shows, "No Hedgehog is an Island" (I also said to myself while watching that show: are they trying to hook up Knux with Sonia?!) and "New Echidna in Town"(at the beginning: I knew they were putting those two together!) The other thing that I thought (which I know probably isn't the opinion of most who watched the shows) was that Knuckles seemed to overshadow Sonic in BOTH episodes. Maybe that's just me as an enormous Knux fan seeing things, but I got that impression when I first saw those shows and I still have it every time I watch them. However, there was one thing that drove me nuts about both shows, which I don't like about any SU show: The Hedgehogs broke into song. Sorry, I just don't like it in cartoons. Occasionally yes, but not in every single episode. That's the same reason I could never like Animaniacs, so don't think it's just SU. The only cartoon in Animaniacs that I can really watch is one that has Slappy Squirrel in it because I'm practically assured "No Singing." The only show where breaking into song didn't bother me is Alvin and the Chipmunks and I know the reason for that is the fact that they would break into songs like "Beat It" or "Uptown Girl." In other words, songs that I know and for the most part liked and could hear on the radio or from tapes and/or records my mother has. My funniest SU moment is still in "New Echidna in Town" when Knux and Robotnik covered their ears almost as if in pain when Sonic, Sonia, and Manic started doing the song of day. Still the show overall is okay, but what I didn't like about SU when I started watching other episodes was many were direct rip-offs of SatAM and AoStH episodes I had seen before, only changed a little bit since well the characters are Sonic and his siblings instead of Sonic and the FFs or Sonic and Tails. I praise SU for having Knuckles and doing him well. I liked SU Knuckles and I don't see where people get this he's a "clown" or "dork" stuff from at all (though I would like to know where Chomps came from). Also, I didn't mind Knuckles being with Sonia. It's not like they put Julie-Su in the show and if they did they would probably change Julie-Su so much from Archie (remember what they did to Athair) that I might not want Julie-Su with Knux. I still wish that they had made a bit more original episodes. I'm sure they did, I didn't see all 40 (nor the "lost" 25), I only saw 25-27 full episodes and parts of about 5 others. SU didn't attract me too much other than the fact that Knuckles was in it. No "Sonic" doesn't attract me to a cartoon show and never has. I remember when the preview for Sonic's new show came on TGIF way back when and I left the room immediately because I did not like Sonic and wasn't interested. My sister watched it though, watched SatAM and fell in love with it. Then she drove me crazy until I gave it a chance. The first show I saw was "Heads or Tails" and I loved it instantly and that's how this girl got into Sonic. Still, if Knuckles wasn't in SU, I don't think I even would have watched it at all. It's a pretty good cartoon in comparison to everything else that's on right now, except for Digimon and Monster Rancher (I just saw those shows for the first time and they're awesome). However, SU is a refreshing break from the "mon" revolution going on since not everyone likes those types of shows. My favorite "non-Knuckles" show from SU is "Beginnings" which would've gone onto greatness in my head, but.....THEY BROKE INTO SONG!!!! To me it wasn't necessary, but that's the same belief I hold for almost every time they broke into song (and I've already stated my opinions about breaking into song). Now the main reason I don't compare SU to SatAM is the same reason I don't compare Sonic comics to Knuckles comics. My feelings about SatAM are this: SatAM is to cartoons what Knuckles is to comics. The greatest things for their respective mediums cut down and cancelled right in the middle of their prime. If I directly compared SU to SatAM, SU wouldn't stand a chance and I'd be more inclined to say it's terrible,which I don't think it is. I think it's a decent cartoon, but it's not something that I would get into. However, SU doesn't help itself out in the SatAM comparison department when several episodes are SatAM rip-offs and not done as well. IMHO, It's okay to do a rip-off IF you do it well or better than the original. I probably should check to see if those shows were written by an ex-SatAM writer, though. I don't hold a grudge against SatAM or AoStH because Knuckles wasn't in them, especially since he hadn't been created in time to be in either one. Both shows started in 1993, and Knuckles didn't enter the scene until 1994. As for SatAM's second season in 1994, the shows had to be made way before 1994 when Knuckles was introduced, so the earliest he could've been put in would've been the third season or more likely....the fourth season. As for SatAM, I loved EVERY episode (just like I loved every Knuckles issue #1-32, include specials, back-ups, & the mini-series too), including the shows most people don't like that showcased Antoine. Those shows cracked me up. I thought they were hilarious and actually much more entertaining than AoStH, which I knew was focusing more on humor than being serious. These are my opinions. --- OnyxBomb My opinion.... ....it may be because I grew up in the Islands watching both US and jap animation.....cuz I'm very particular about it. On the whole, US cartoons suck with exceptions here and there....and more often than not...imports from any country that come into the US often end up sucking, too. SU is one of those cases. A good thing was that they kept Jaleel White for Sonic and got hom to do Manic...from what I understand....Manic has a HUGE fan following that dwarfs Sonic's. The big mistake,however, was getting him to do Sonia's. She's a hard enough character to have to deal with...portraying the stereotype representing those who live the upper-crust life, but that's somewhat tolerable...it's hearing that unnecessarily squeaky voice that gets me. And I'm sure others feel the same way. She makes Gina's high-pitched kitty-whining seems like opera. Bitchbitchbitch. :p My point is....bad dubbing. It often kills what could be a good show. Sailormoon is good, tedious...but tolerable. It's the dubbing that got me. A japanese girl with a bronx accent? Oooooooooookay. (I heard that on a s ite somewhere.....I also heard the Sailorsenshi were only good for hentai and Houjindoushi.....but that's another story.) The "other" furries are also horrible looking. It might be okay if they were only in the BG....but a lot of them directly affect the story, and they're butt-ugly furs that even I can outdraw. They're that bad. The stories themselves aren't too bad. And they did do Knuckles pretty well. Athair, however...ugh....if they're trying to establish themselves as a separate continuity from SatAM and Archie, taking either continuity's chars and uglifying them SU-style is not the way to do it. I share Cassie's sentiment on SU-bashing....but mind you...I'm only stating my opinion. I'm not saying anyone who watches the show is an idiot.... and I'm not saying those support it's downfall are right....I'm saying what I feel, I have that right. --- Tails Well... I've seen a lot of SU and seen all of SatAM, I watch stuff cos it's Sonic based. I like just about all forms of Sonic... even AoStH, they all have good points and bad points, but at least it's all Sonic. I know a lot of peeps who think that too. --- Crimson Kitty What I've noticed.. I like SU. After watching it a few times, I've noticed that between all of the action and music and joking there's a bit of emotion stuck in there.. For example, one ep dealed with going into another dimension ( kind of like the alternate universes in the comics ), and seeing themselves as the villans and robotnik as the hero. After getting the villian hedgehogs under control, Sonic and the rest showed them around their destroyed kingdom, letting them see what their greed had done to it. Upon seeing a child on the street that was poor and homeless, the villian hedgehogs gave her things they had hoarded; Sonic his chili-dogs, Manic his gold coins and Sonia her crown jewels, all moved to tears. The villians renounced their ways and joined Robotnik's resistance. Returning to their own dimension, Sonic and his siblings were confronted by an image of their mother, who congradulated them for their work. She quickly disappeared again, much to the dismay of Sonia, who cried out for her to return, and burst into tears. Manic and Sonic quickly tried to comfort her by having a nice big group hug=) Anywayz, I agree. To enjoy SU you can't go into it thinking it'll be as good as SatAM. Most likely you're expecting more than that.. You remember every highlight of SatAM and expect that to be the norm, when many eps of it never really worked either. You have to go into it, and try to enjoy it rather than look for faults. That's what I did, and I liked all of the highlights I could find, so I'll keep watching. You don't HAVE to like SU, but you should at least give it a chance.. Right? --- WB A VERY Good Point Personally I don't like SU. As an aspiring animator myself I see MANY flaws in it in both animation and writing, and I find the storyline horrid. And to be on the other side of the fence I can find MANY of those flaws in the first season of SatAM and the "double eps" of the second season. HOWEVER - I choose SatAM over SU, because to me there are more negatives in SU than positives. Thats my personal opinion. What I WON'T do however, and what the WRONG thing to do is comparing it to SatAM or AoSTH or Segasonic. Thats like comparing chalk and cheese. You can MAYBE do that with SatAM and Segasonic or SatAM and Archie (thier all the most popular Sonic genres period and its the source of LOTS of good debates). But SatAM and Sonic Underground is a NO WAY comparison. They cant be compared as the both of them are so totally different. And thats where a lot of people make thier mistakes. My personal opinion is that IF IT HAD been more SatAM-ish or done a lot of things different animation and storywise it would thus appeal to more people. Some people like what they did. Personally I dont. Thats just me. What I would like to know from the SU fans per se is WHY they like SU. Just out of curiosity from someone whom it doesnt appeal to. Different strokes for different folks. Just as an off note to some people on this board - I've talked to SU fans like Sierra Renay, and don't down her or any other SU fan just because they happen to like it. Not saying or naming people, but may be the way it came across to those SU fans. Be careful how you word your phrases sometimes. You may not mean to offend, but if its said in the wrong manner sometimes it can be taken in offence. And to those on the recieving end, just because a majority has a different opinion that doesnt mean you should let anyone down you either. But at the same time DONT attack that person back. Two wrongs dont make a right. Just for the simple act that people like Sierra CONTINUE to stand up for something she believes in even if the majority hates it, shows a lot of conviction on her part. That takes guts to always be on the recieving end. Instead of pointing fingers and saying "EEEW ! YOU LIKE THAT!" try and find out WHY that person likes it. And for the recievers - dont take EVERYTHING the naysayers say as offence. Who knows if thier just trying to spark a simple topic or debate. And thats my beef. ^_^ --- Mobius Springheart Exactly.... And I shall be giving SU another chance (and not comparing) when SU returns on Saterday in the UK...I only hope I can change my opinion so It is less problematic for me to express my opinion! ---