Just A Thought
Posted by Ken Penders on June 09, 2000


I was reading an article today, which related how it's the 210th anniversary of the first
creative work ever copyrighted in the United States. (It was a spelling book, of all things.)
Reading the article got me to thinking about a number of issues that have been raised on
this board, but never fully debated, in my opinion.

A couple of related subjects have to do with fan-fic and the use of another's characters.

One of the reasons I've never read anyone's fan-fic is that I never wanted to be accused
of stealing, whether intentionally or not, another person's work. Not their plots. Not their
characters. Absolutely nothing. On the flip side, I've never had a problem with a reader
basing their stories upon my work. The question here, though, is that even if I don't mind
if someone writes a Julie-Su story, does that still make it right for someone to create
stories using someone else's creations? 

Before you answer, think about the incident with Mina, and how we at Archie were
accused of stealing someone else's character. Suppose it was a stranger using your
characters in their stories? How would you feel?

Or how about when someone posts a story written and drawn by a certain creator without
their permission? More than a couple people were ready to post the complete version of
the Sonic & Knuckles story published in the Comic Shop News until I suggested that
wouldn't be the smartest thing they could do. Doesn't Archie (and Sega) -- or any creator,
for that matter, have a right to charge for the work?

This isn't personally directed at anyone in particular, but I would be interested in hearing
the comments from anyone who reads this and cares to post. 
------
Re: Just A Thought
Posted by Emerald

I couldn't agree with you more, Ken. As a person of full fear of one other stealing my
characters, stories, and names, I personally understand it. I've never run across a writter
who's been so honest about not wanting to borrow a character from someone elses story
and using them for their own behalf. Although I realize there have been numerous spin
offs all around the world of animation (George of the Jungle is a comedy spin off from
TARZAN) direct copying of a storyline is strictlu PROHIBITED and should stay that way. 
I remember I wrote to Disney one time and sent them a picture of a couple baby T-Rex
characters. Young and stupid, I didn't think to realize that Disney would look for any kind
of idea for their shows and not give any credit to me, since I had no official proof.

So two months later, I forgot what cartoon it was, but there they were, those two T Rexes. 

At least I learned never to expose any of my projects. Because I also had a nightmare
about it. 
---
Posted by BobR


: I was reading an article today, which related how it's the 210th anniversary of the first
creative work ever copyrighted in the United States. (It was a spelling book, of all things.)
Reading the article got me to thinking about a number of issues that have been raised on
this board, but never fully debated, in my opinion.

: A couple of related subjects have to do with fan-fic and the use of another's characters.

Heh, seems we were just discussing this the other day on the phone, Ken. :) For you
others, it had to do with the "new" Particle picture now adorning The Lost Ones website. I
put "new" in quotations in that it is Ken's picture of Particle. He drew it, scanned it,
colored it, etc. But I always thought it needed a little something extra. So, one night when
my insomnia was working overtime, I added that little something. Did I violate Ken's
copyright? Probably yes, although it's a gray area since I do work on his site for him with
his permission. Should I have asked permission first? Yes. But, when I finished, the first
thing I did was show it to Ken. If he didn't like it, or was upset about it, I would've erased
the files and that would've been that. As it turned out, he wasn't upset and actually liked
it...so much that it's now on the site. I'm just going to have to teach Ken how to do gif
animations. *grin*

: One of the reasons I've never read anyone's fan-fic is that I never wanted to be accused
of stealing, whether intentionally or not, another person's work. Not their plots. Not their
characters. Absolutely nothing. On the flip side, I've never had a problem with a reader
basing their stories upon my work. The question here, though, is that even if I don't mind
if someone writes a Julie-Su story, does that still make it right for someone to create
stories using someone else's creations? 

Ken already knows my feelings on this, and why I'm so much on tippy toes when handling
others' works, like Ken's on his web page. In my RL job, I'm an instructor at a local
community college. Myself and several other instructors created a textbook for a course
in statistical process control for quality which was used in a very popular course for
business and industry. The books that were on the market at the time just didn't fit this
program, which was why we created our own. This course was so popular we had to
contract adjunct faculty (outside instructors) to help with the course load.

Part of being an instructor means you get to talk to publisher reps about upcoming book
releases. We had let this one rep know we were looking for books in SPC & quality, and
he eagerly sent us a galley copy (test printing) of a new book they were coming out with
on just that topic, expecting to get a big order on first printing. It was OUR book. The
"author" was one of our adjunct faculty hired to teach the course to several companies.
Needless to say, this did NOT go over well with everyone in the department, nor those in
higher authority. The outcome was the book was stopped, the publisher was suing the
"author" to get their advances back, and he was banned from ever teaching at our college
again. I know how I felt when someone else was trying to take credit for work that I did,
and I didn't have the biggest section in the book. The other faculty members had more
input than I.

: Before you answer, think about the incident with Mina, and how we at Archie were
accused of stealing someone else's character. Suppose it was a stranger using your
characters in their stories? How would you feel?

I have a character I roleplay on FurryMUCK. He's a genetically altered dolphin...not for
intelligence, as dolphins already had that. But for an ability to speak and to be able to stay
out of water for extended periods of time. (For those who don't know, dolphin skin dries
up terribly fast if they're out of water for any length of time, and they have terrible heat
regulation problems.) Externally, he looks just like any other dolphin. So how does he get
around on land? Nanotechnology. His body is filled with microscopic machines, linked
together into his nervous system, taking their cues from his thoughts and muscles. They
form a series of forcefields which allow him to leave the water, and basicly "swim" through
the air. I've built limits into his systems. He has to be in water 6 hours out of every 24, or
he'll suffer severe systemic distress. And he's always eating (about 3x a normal dolphin's
intake. Gotta get the power for the forcefields from somewhere. :) He can manipulate the
fields, creating artificial "hands" for grasping objects and performing work. As you can tell,
he's a fairly well-developed character. He should be, as I've been using him on the muck
over 6 years now. :) 

Now, if someone were to use my character in a story, I would probably be flattered...IF
THEY ASKED ME FIRST. To just take this character and use him without obtaining my
permission would be like taking a part of me. In many ways a creation is an extension of its
creator. You use my creation, you're using me. I don't like to be used.

: Or how about when someone posts a story written and drawn by a certain creator without
their permission? More than a couple people were ready to post the complete version of
the Sonic & Knuckles story published in the Comic Shop News until I suggested that
wouldn't be the smartest thing they could do. Doesn't Archie (and Sega) -- or any creator,
for that matter, have a right to charge for the work?

Our society, indeed the world's society, is based upon fair compensation for the
expenditure of an individual's energy. And while there are those out there that do give
things away, by far many more use their energies to bring them things they can't create for
themselves. A carpenter builds a dream house. A glassblower creates beautiful multi-hued
vases from his furnace. An artist creates beautiful seascape murals on canvas. Should
these artisans just give away their creations for free? Obviously not! Yet why should the
author that creates by placing pen upon paper be considered different? He or she has
placed as much time and energy in creating their work as these others. When others take
without permission, they are essentially stealing that person's work, just as if they stole
that vase or swiped that mural. 

: This isn't personally directed at anyone in particular, but I would be interested in hearing
the comments from anyone who reads this and cares to post. 

I truly believe that many of the copyright violations are done just out of plain ignorance.
There is a lot of myth and misconceptions about copyrights. People just have to learn
what is and isn't proper. And learn it correctly. 

About fan-fics...I think most companies realize that they're going to happen. On a web
page, in a mailing list...people show their enthusiasm for a character or show by creating
their own stories. For a company to go after every single individual that violates their
copyright would be counterproductive. Look at the backlash from (ex?)fans of Metallica
when they took those 300,000 names into Napster and had them barred. What hurt
Metallica more? The loss of revenue from their songs being distributed, or the loss of
fans by their heavy-handed approach?

Time-Warner found out the hard way about that. Back when Animaniacs was really big,
Warner legal decided all the fan sites for Animaniacs were copyright violations.
Technically, most of them were. They sent out over 3000 Cease & Desist orders. They
apparently did this without corporate's approval, nor did Tom Ruegger, the creator and
producer of Animaniacs, know about it. I know Tom was livid...he considered the web sites
good advertising (as long as they didn't take the characters too far! *ahem* Minerva).
Corporate was more laid back. They asked legal what the cost was to process C&D letters
in litigation. (Turns out it's about $100,000 per case, and up!) So, 3000 C&D letters would
mean $300,000,000 in court costs...for an estimated $50,000,000 property. Was this a good
ROI? Corporate thought not. In the end only those with questionable materials were
processed beyond the single letter. It also spawned several legal attempts to get
fan-fictions and fan-operated sites some protection under the copyright law against such
heavy handed tactics, but I'm not really sure how that activity played out. Since I've never
heard of any copyright changes, I'm thinking it didn't get very far.

BTW, I think I can safely say the Animaniacs had the first cartoon written specifically by
and for the Internet. Look for an episode called "The Please Please Please Get A Life
Foundation." When you watch it, just about all the things our "nerd" friend says at the
opening and close of the cartoon came out of the alt.tv.animaniacs FAQ file. And since I
was one of the 6 original "Answermaniacs" (people responsible for answering questions
about the show on a.t.a) I might be able to say like that commercial, "And I helped!" :) But
how they got my picture for that guy at the beginning, I'll never know... *grin*
---
Hmm...
Posted by Dr. Robotnik

: I was reading an article today, which related how it's the 210th anniversary of the first
creative work ever copyrighted in the United States. (It was a spelling book, of all things.)
Reading the article got me to thinking about a number of issues that have been raised on
this board, but never fully debated, in my opinion.

I think so too.

: One of the reasons I've never read anyone's fan-fic is that I never wanted to be accused
of stealing, whether intentionally or not, another person's work. Not their plots. Not their
characters. Absolutely nothing.

I know you've said that before. There are some things I've done that I wouldn't mind if
anyone used. The thing is, they're either not on the internet, or they're theories that I've
posted that have strong relavancy to a fanfic I'm writing.

: On the flip side, I've never had a problem with a reader basing their stories upon my
work. The question here, though, is that even if I don't mind if someone writes a Julie-Su
story, does that still make it right for someone to create stories using someone else's
creations?

I know that most writers fully acknowledge that some, most, or all of the characters in the
story are copyright SEGA(A, E, & J), Archie, Fleetway, Taki, etc. Although SEGA would
rather people didn't create derivative works, I think of it as a kind of free advertising.

: Before you answer, think about the incident with Mina, and how we at Archie were
accused of stealing someone else's character.

It does kinda look like the fan character, but I defend Archie on that one.

: Suppose it was a stranger using your characters in their stories? How would you feel?

I'd rather they ask me first so I can review other things they've written. If I like what
they've done, I'd give them the full character profile so the character doesn't act
out-of-character.

: Or how about when someone posts a story written and drawn by a certain creator without
their permission? More than a couple people were ready to post the complete version of
the Sonic & Knuckles story published in the Comic Shop News until I suggested that
wouldn't be the smartest thing they could do. 

CSN was still trying to make money on those, NTM, SSS #12 might have been in planning
already. 

: Doesn't Archie (and Sega) -- or any creator, for that matter, have a right to charge for the
work?

It kinda brings up the subject of emulated games. I've heard that if you own the original(if
you bought the cartridge or disk) then you can legally own the emulated version.

: This isn't personally directed at anyone in particular, but I would be interested in hearing
the comments from anyone who reads this and cares to post. 

I'd love to get a look at the official character profile and the model sheets for the
characters(before they started to be drawn incorrectly, IMO). I don't know if there are any
regulations on that though. If there was an official site where the 7 "Character Bibles"
were so fans could make sure they were getting it right, that would be good. Again, there
might be ™ trouble 
---
How this stuff affects me and my thoughts...
Posted by Ian the Potto 


First off, Sega and Archie's say-so over their work directly affects me. Since I'm running a
Sonic fan-comic, if Sega said "boo", it'd be gone at the drop of a hat. I don't want to cause
trouble, but I also want to tell a story using those characters. Apparently, the unspoken
word of the Internet is that as long as you don't try to get a profit, you'll be left only. But
there is no such thing as a free lunch.

My host (for the Unofficial Site) is TopCities. The only banner that pops up when viewing
the Other-M pages asks the viewer if they want free web-space from TopCities. TC
apparently gets their funding from the banners that appear on ever page-editing page you
use when you work on your personal website. So, with folks coming to read Other-M, they
may decide to get their web-space from TC, thus creating another account and
banner-farm, and thus brings in the dough for TC. Can it be said that TC is indirectly
getting money from Sega's characters?

In a perfect world, this would be much easier. An malignant use of someelses work (i.e.
using Julie-Su in very inapproapriate ways or for distastful products) would be deemed as
wrong. On the flip side, my fan-comic (which portrays the characters in a different light)
would be perfectly fine since it is used in the constructive story-telling way, and not any
destructive way.

I think that as long as the product, in this case, the characters, are not used in an negative
way, it should go untouched. Trying to make money off of someone else's creation would
be negative. Fan-fics, -comics, -games and all the like, I think, should be seen as a free
form of advertising for the producers. Think of it: you have hundreds of thousands of fans
that are praising a product without asking a cent. We fans use our time and money putting
up things that only intensify the icon. We're a banner-farm in ourselves.

Still, this isn't a perfect world, and these are my views. So if Other-M suddenly disappears
from the face of the Earth, you'll know it's b/c Sega, or someone from Archie, has said
"boo."

SYOTFS,
Ian the Potto 

     Other-M
http://www.topcities.com/anime/ianpotto
---
Re: Just A Thought
Posted by Kat-chan


I don't know if I can rightfully say...o.o...in some RPs, one of my characters was with
kragok...*shrugs* ...that's long since passed, although I still adore the character. (Villains
are so cool...like Juhachigou and Junanagou...). After growing up a bit and starting some
things of my own, I've come to think that it's not necessarily right to use someone's
character(s) without permission. I know I'd be upset if someone was using one of my
characters without my permission. However, there's another side to this: fandom. People
love things like DB/Z/GT, Sailor Moon, Sonic, Digimon, etc...and fan-fiction/fan art is a way
of expressing that. I think, in that sense, it's okay for a little fandom to be created, as long
as proper credit is given where it's rightfully due. If someone was saying that Sonic
belonged to them...well...I'd be a bit concerned ;)

: Before you answer, think about the incident with Mina, and how we at Archie were
accused of stealing someone else's character. Suppose it was a stranger using your
characters in their stories? How would you feel?

I'd hope it wasn't the case that Archie really DID steal Mina... I have to admit, the character
similarities are a bit disturbing. However, I've seen other things like this before. I mean,
look at a fandom example: Pepper-Jie and Zip Echidna are both yellow. Pepper-Jie and
Deano both have red/blue eyes. However, I created Pep back in 6th grade, long before I
knew either of these people. Coincidences CAN occur. I mean, if I were to point out all the
fanboy blue hedgehogs, that'd take a long time...you know? I'd really HATE to see
someone ripping off a character, though... it happened to me once before, and it made me
feel like trash... like something that was a part of me had been ripped away. It really
doesn't feel pleasant. -_-

: Or how about when someone posts a story written and drawn by a certain creator without
their permission? More than a couple people were ready to post the complete version of
the Sonic & Knuckles story published in the Comic Shop News until I suggested that
wouldn't be the smartest thing they could do. Doesn't Archie (and Sega) -- or any creator,
for that matter, have a right to charge for the work?

I think that's wrong in any case, although I'd be hypocritical if I took that as a permanent
standpoint. Some of my friends are posting Dragonball mangas on their website,
HOWEVER...they are ONLY posting issues that Viz has yet to release. Once released by
Viz, the proper mangas are deleted from the website. Is that right? They're not out for
profit or anything- simply to share the joys of Japanese DBZ with fans over the world.
Does this reduce Viz's sales? not by any means- Viz has the best translation, and they
print the issues in proper manga form. it's a really hard question to answer, when you get
down to it...you know? 

: This isn't personally directed at anyone in particular, but I would be interested in hearing
the comments from anyone who reads this and cares to post. 

I hope some of what I said makes an OUNCE of sense... I have a fever and I'm not thinking
clearly x_@
---
my thoughts
Posted by Rick 2Tails

I think in theory copyrigths are totaly fair as one should have use of ones ideas.But I thibk
there`s a difference between characters owned by individuals and multinational media
corporations like Disney or Time-warner or Viacom.
I believe fanworks as long as they don`t make money off them are advertisements and
publicity for said media giant corp. controlled characters. And I believe that theese
faceless corporations have little right to characters that they abandon and produce no
new uses of like say Gadget from Rescue Rangers from Disney or Road Rovers from
Warner Bros .I also believe perpetual copyrights long after the creater is dead is immoral.
Walt Disney is dead and has been dead for a long time.I believe no copyright should last
longer than a lifetime.75 years is more than enough time to exploit a character or work of
fiction.I think kanything before 1925 should be public domain and i`d say 1926 for next
year, etc..
---
actually...
Posted by Allytha

I have read heavily into that. By law, the moment someone creates something, it belongs
to them. No ifs ands or buts. And if someone wishes to use that particular piece of work,
they're required by law to ask the creator, whether it's a piece of art or a fan fic. It's also
not alright to simply use someone elses characters in your own fan fic, thinking along the
lines that you created it so it's yours, cause it's still the person's characters... I'm afraid I'm
not explaining this very well.. ^_^;;; you may want to go to the below link for further
information... it'll be more helpful than I am..

http://aimee.wyvernweb.com/copyright/faq.html
---
Cool link
Posted by Catrina

Thanks
I'm always telling my friends to obey the copyright laws, but they don't listen :(
---
Re: Just A Thought
Posted by Mary Canada


hmmmm... I'm not to be mistaken for the other Mary down there.. I hardly ever come here
but this post grabed my attention...

: One of the reasons I've never read anyone's fan-fic is that I never wanted to be accused
of stealing, whether intentionally or not, another person's work. Not their plots. Not their
characters. Absolutely nothing. 

Indeed thats good of you Mr. Penders. *nods* That way you aren't tempted to use
another's idea and you can have the satisfaction of comeing up with ideas/plots and
stories all you own... I don't read fan-fics cause its very hard to find a _decent_ fic out
there...

: On the flip side, I've never had a problem with a reader basing their stories upon my
work. The question here, though, is that even if I don't mind if someone writes a Julie-Su
story, does that still make it right for someone to create stories using someone else's
creations? 

Quite pecular.... I'd think that it'd be okay provided that they got the permission of the
creator of the character... but in the case of writeing a Sonic/Knuckles story.. it'd be hard
to get sega/archie to even look at a letter that you write... believe it or not I'd hope that
sega and archie have better things to do then tell people that its okay or not okay to use
characters in a fic.... you have me stumped there...

: Before you answer, think about the incident with Mina, and how we at Archie were
accused of stealing someone else's character. Suppose it was a stranger using your
characters in their stories? How would you feel?

Indeed I woulden't like it... c_c You have a point Mr. Penders... 

What I consider fan-fics as are a type of "What if" thing... like an event in the comic didn't
go how someone though it should have so they wrote a fic on how they think it could have
gone... but still it comes back to that... and your right... its... hard to argue.

: Or how about when someone posts a story written and drawn by a certain creator without
their permission? More than a couple people were ready to post the complete version of
the Sonic & Knuckles story published in the Comic Shop News until I suggested that
wouldn't be the smartest thing they could do. Doesn't Archie (and Sega) -- or any creator,
for that matter, have a right to charge for the work?

I think that posting full things like that is pretty bad... granted its nice to post some
previews like you do (and thank you; that got me to actually buy some comics and give
them a good read.) but posting the full thing... it shoulden't be done... thats something I
wouldne't mind if sega/archie got mad at them doing a thing like that...

Doing that is the equivelent of makeing a game emulator or uploading mp3's... your
takeing the creator's livelyhood and giveing it out for free... it shoulden't happen... and yet
it does...

: This isn't personally directed at anyone in particular, but I would be interested in hearing
the comments from anyone who reads this and cares to post. 

mmmmm.... that was my half a cent... I hope it made some sort of sence... *shrugs* You do
raise a good point Mr. Penders... a very good one. 
---
Posted by Dr. Robotnik

: I don't read fan-fics cause its very hard to find a _decent_ fic out there...

I'd recommend "Capture the Flag" by Dan Drazen 
---
Posted by MaryEchidna

: I'd recommend "Capture the Flag" by Dan Drazen

Yep, that fan-fic was the first fic I ever read, and I had been a fan of his stories since then.
:)
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