Just a general question to the masses... Posted by Ian the Potto March 17, 2000 ...am I the only one who is beginning to NOT like Spaz's work? I mean, yeah, he's still the best of the best, but... Well, compare Sonic #25 or #30 and Mecha Madness to the latest covers, especially those of the coming SSS #14, StH #85-86. Do you see what I'm talking about? In the earlier stuff, the characters were highly defined and impressively rendered. You could almost believe they were real. Now, you start getting this, I dunno, sloppy looking stuff. I mean, StH #85. Look at Sonic's hand as he upper-cuts Silver Sonic Mach 3. That has no reality to it at all. It would be a fist, not a clawed hand. In earlier times, Spaz would not have made this kind of oddity. While his work in the Julie-Su solo-story was much more like his old work, yet retained the rich detail of his growing power. What I'm saying is that his cover-art looks like he's trying to show off, and I don't like it. Am I alone? If so, please refain from gratuitous assaults ^_^;; I know he's trying to go for a kind of manga style but...no. TRADITIONAL ARTIST VALUES! >ahem< Thank you. *gets off his soap-box* SYOTFS, Ian the Potto --- I still like his art and covers myself Posted by Rick 2Tails or otherwise ,I wouldn`t spend hundreds of dollars on commissions! And I like that Butler draws the girls shapely. I`m a big boy.I like that type of thing ;) --- Hmmm , I dunno... Posted by Astal I still love his artwork. They show a great amount of speed going on and I also like his video game art that he does for Gamefan. I encourage it, at least. -Astal --- Current Art Styles Posted by Ken Penders I'd like to address your comments for a minute, if I may. First off, while I agree with much of what you have to say, part of the reason Spaz's art lately is evolving into a more manga-esque style is twofold: 1) He really likes that style of art. He was a major fan long before a lot of people were. 2) He was encouraged by Justin to continue evolving his style more in that direction. In fact, Justin told all the artists to be as manga-like with their style as much as they wanted. A major part of the reason he issued this directive was due in part to the sales generated by anime/manga product. It's no secret that younger readers have all but abandoned traditional comics in droves, and he felt this direction would maintain Sonic more in tune with current readership tastes. The one artist least influenced by this style happens to be me, as I'm the oldest and was influenced by other styles long before anime/manga became the rage. If there's anything I'm sympatico with regarding anime/manga, it's the storytelling, not the art style. Now that I'm beginning to see more comments criticizing the anime/manga approach to the art, I'd like to see a sample of opinions expressing how they feel we should handle the art in Sonic. Believe it or not, this is a very critical question these days, as we struggle to meet the demands of you the readers and the challenges of the marketplace in general. Your comments, positive and negative, are welcome. All I ask is that they be constructive and not personal. Thanks. --- I rather like it... Posted by Allytha Diversity of art styles in the Sonic comics is one of unique perks that I really enjoy... The anime style being no exception... As for Spaz leaning toward anime lately... I've always seen a bit of a manga influence in his art, and now that it is coming out full fledged, I love it! Just as I love the old styles of Ken and Art who, sadly, had to leave. don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shoot you down or flame you or anything like that. I can see why a manga style would annoy a person... I'm just stating my opinion. On another note, I found the comment Ken made about kids leaning more toward anime interesting, as that is what my brother and I have been doing lately... *shrugs* just something about the style that appeals to me more than the america --- I havent noticed really the way the characters are being drawn o.o Posted by Sonicmike As i look at all the postings i find myself wondering what is all the fuss about. I havent noticed anything about the artwork well except the covers but they ook great anyway as always. I have always loved spaz's work i just do and this thing about the way the characters are being drawn please come on now take a look at the way marvel and other comic book companies draw there characters nowadays its just the current trend to make characters "look good" as im sure someone else has said in there postings (i havent read them all on this subject) Just live with it guys i mean i didnt even notice the way the female characters were drawn untill you mentioned it guys heh i dont care about that stuff its the story i want to read maybe thats why i have too many rpgs now for my psx! --- What really bothers me... Posted by Cyber Hare Is the overly humanesque way in which Spaz draws the female characters. My best example would be Sally and Bunnie on the cover of issue #78. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think the way they're drawn is very appropriate for a Sonic comic. Sally's way too...well, naked-looking. I know she's been naked from the beginning, but it was a safe, cartoonish naked, like Sonic. The way Spaz drew her in #22 was OK. But now...egads. Spaz's command of detail and movement is wonderful and a joy to look at, but Sonic the Hedgehog is NOT the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. This kind of thing has bothered me about the regular Archie comics, too, where Betty, Veronica and Cheryl run around on the covers in skimpy little bikinis and whatnot. For a comic company that claims to stick to "Wholesome Family Oriented Products" (a phrase taken directly from the Archie Comics website), to portray their characters in an overly "sexy" manner seems a tad hypocritical to me. Anyway, I don't mind too much about the manga influence that's been showing up lately, but for goodness' sake, this is still a comic that's aimed at younger kids. I really wish that the art would reflect that. The characters can be cute and even beautiful without having to be drawn in an immodest manner. ~Cyber, who's wanted to say something about this for a long time now. P.S. Something that's been bugging me for a while now: Does anyone else notice a resemblance between Mina and one of the Freedom Fighter leaders that Sally was talking to in the "First Contact" story of issue #52? --- Yeah, The Mina thing was a big discussion a little while ago.... Posted by Astal Alot of people thought Karl and Fry ripped off a fan character until Ken set the record straight. Me thinks that was a character made by Bollers. --- Oh, OK. I guess I missed that discussion. Thanks. :) ~Cyber --- An Addendum. PLEASE don't take my previous comments as a personal attack on Spaz. I love his work, I really do. ~Cyber --- The Artistic Value Of The Archie Comics Posted by WB : I'd like to address your comments for a minute, if I may. First off, while I agree with much of what you have to say, part of the reason Spaz's art lately is evolving into a more manga-esque style is twofold: I'm very glad someone brought this up...I have a lot to say on it myself I guess. I agree with some of what people are saying about Spaz. Personally, I love his artwork, I still do. But what happened to its detail? What happened to the fact that there was quite often, "so much more". Sonic 85 is a prime example - Sonic's fist isnt clenched, it just sorta stands there. Isn't he supposed to be punching Metal Sonic? Metal Sonic on 86 doesnt have that same amount of detail that Mecha Sonic in Mecha Madness once had. Personally, I am a HUGE manga/anime fan. I've been with it for YEARS too - Ninja Scroll, Tenchi Muyo, Slayers, Dragonball AND Dragonball Z. I'll even take it a few notches back and mention Tranzor Z. ^__^ But I don't like the direction its taken on the comic, just going willy nilly with no substance. Many people already believe that manga is just less detailed figures with triangled mouths and nonmoving jaws which is SO not true in all of its cases. But GOOD art, manga or not, is that which maintains its fluidity and realability (if thats a word). Spaz has ALWAYS had its fluidity, but what happened to its realism? Why is Sonic's mouth now it is eye in some drawings? I want to see that "life" thats given into anime characters, with its hundreds of positions and stances, but I also want to see that "life" given by American art with jaws moving and realistic stylings and setups. I will give it this though - Spaz has revived from a very HUGE slump. You see - its a bit of a two way street. Around the comics after say...50, especially near 60, Spaz had fallen into a bit of a rut drawing wise. The exact same poses and looks. Check out the covers BEFORE the "anime period", but after 50. Thiers not much difference in thier looks in Sonic. Sonic had pretty much the same expression on every one up to issue 71. It was either, stern look, happy look, or vapid look. At issue 72, with the SA designs, he's finally found new poses to work with. And I think in some cases, he's a lot happier now. You can tell how much a person likes what he's doing sometimes in his artwork, with the coming of SA Sonic has been in positions and angles we've never seen him before in. He's found a new twist to his style. HOWEVER - along the way, he sacrificed some of the older detail for it. Though SA should get some, it shouldnt get all of the blame. Its a new style and a new challenge in drawing. And it presents the artist with a new way to present it. I dont think a FULL 360 into the old styles of the issues of the comic will work, because of that simple thing Mr. Penders' said. Spaz LIKES manga - its finally given him a chance to breathe fresh air into the characters that he had not had in months. But at the same time, he needs to bring back that air of realism Just because it is SA however DOES NOT mean that it should become ALL ANIME styled. Why can you not mix this style with his once older style. Using that same life and spark, with the realism and details. Mergin it sort of. Go all the way back, and Spaz hits a rut again, go forward and Spaz loses detail for fluidity. Merge the two and you have a better compromise. The art on that Julie Su solo story is Spaz at his BEST, and just what I'm talking about. THAT is the Spaz I want to see - One who can mix the best of both worlds. I have no problem with his art now, but I believe that it could be so much better if he went back to the way he used to do it and mixed it with the motion it has now. The reason he was so popular was because he had that manga/anime influence, but he kept that realism. Few artists who incorporate manga style into thier artwork do that. Manga is not just all freaky looking positions. It is a different style which produces a great look to it. But the true masters of the style can draw it realistically and not have it coming off looking like, say Digimon - which has very good character designs, but isnt that detailed with them. A phrase my art teacher once told me is "Simple, but yet not simplistic". That can go so many ways and means so much. Archie REALLY oughta go by a credence like that when looking for its future artists and telling its current ones : 2) He was encouraged by Justin to continue evolving his style more in that direction. In fact, Justin told all the artists to be as manga-like with their style as much as they wanted. A major part of the reason he issued this directive was due in part to the sales generated by anime/manga product. It's no secret that younger readers have all but abandoned traditional comics in droves, and he felt this direction would maintain Sonic more in tune with current readership tastes. Personally, while I'm happy he did this I'm not happy with how it was done. You can't just LET LOOSE with no guidlines on how to do it. Remember way back when Sam Maxwell came on board? And people were always complaining because he drew baby heads? And there was NO detail in backgrounds or foregrounds. It was all style and no substance. To me, personally, it still is. Thats why I'm not a fan of his art. His grown up Sonic looks like his kid Sonic. He takes poses and posturing to the next level and contorts them. His use of perspectives is awkward in some shots. Thats not what I wanna personally see at all. With apologies to Mr. Maxwell, its just sorta thrown together. As far is Mr. Gabrie goes - you want to induce creativity and not stifle it, but if you are producing a comic book or animation - you need to set standards as to how far it can go. I'm not being critical mind you. Just observing. Art Mawhinney is no longer with us, but I didnt like his art much because it was just sorta big and poppy looking. His BEST BEST issue ever was Sonic #49. If he had drawn on that level every time I would never have had any problem at all. But compare Sonic 49 to Knuckles 29. The knux one is just missing a lot of stuff that the Sonic one has As far as STORIES and writing go - I WILL say this. I miss the days before issue 50. I miss the lightheartedness. I miss the fact that the book was serious, but not DEADLY serious. I like the fact that it now tackles GOOD hard topics, but at the same time I SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY MISS THE HUMOR !!! Where is the humor? What happened to Sonic a smart ass or annoying Robotnik with "Spider Man" like putdowns like Tubby, or Chubbykins, or whatever. I remember way back when I litterally LOL when Sonic called Robotnik Chubbsy-Ubbsy and Robotnik stood there fuming. Or Antoine would make a fool out of himself without being FOOLISH. Or when Bunnie's southern sarcasm came out once in a while. WHAT HAPPENED TO NICOLE??? She's just become a stoic box with no personality at all. In Mecha Madness she was of witty comments. And I think once in the cartoon she was reprogrammed to talk Ghettospeak or something ^_^ You can have a serious themed book and let it have humor too. And that is something Sonic has lost since Endgame. Its not just the artwork, its the writing too. I like the action of the SA period, but I SORELY miss the humor and lightheartedness of SatAM period. And I think a lot of people can agree with me on that too. I dont want a FULL return of it, because some issues were just unbalanced period ("Gorrilla Warfare" and "Lets Get Small") but Mecha Madness still stands asone of the best Sonic stories created to me. It had action, it took itself very seriously, and it maddeningly crazy, and it was humorous. Even Dave Manak's "Court martial" conclusion was good with Amy Rose standing outside Sonic's prison cell going SHAWSHANK! SHAWSHANK! ^___^ Its the little pop culture humor that goes a long way in a serious book. To close out my topic - I'll bring up what Cyber Hare brought up with the female characters. Sally and Bunnie I sorta don't mind when thier being drawn by Spaz. He does a very good job on them w/o going out of hand to me. Though I can see where she comes from. I liked a more styled look - and no styled does not mean bouncing jiggling breasts. ^_^ Personally, it was Steven Butlers rendition of Sally and Bunnie I didnt like. They hit puberty so fast it was impossible looking. Sally's vest had diminished to the size of a do rag and Bunnie looked ready to pop out of her top. Spaz at least found a balance between either softcore porn or having them with ironing board chests. But at least he's not Steven Butlers version ^_^ And that concludes my say on it. Jonathan H. Gray The Dubba Dubba WB --- One Thing I Forgot To Mention Posted by WB The crux of my argument - You can have manga and anime - but its the DIVERSITY of art and the originality of it that counts. Without that it just becomes another book with "anime knockoff" artists People in schools arent looking for manga imitators - thier looking for good talented people with thier own styles and thier own creativity who can draw a LARGE DIVERSE field of things. And I think the comics should not just relegate itself to manga alone. But look for GOOD fluid artists who are not stiff. Spaz's earlier art BEFORE #50 was the best of them. Stuff like the 3 Phases Of Eve story and the Julie Su story. Diversification works. And thats it. Seriously ^__^ --- The thing about Spaz' art. His covers seem to be the bazar stretchy stuff, mainly because covers should be able to catch the customer's eye. I remember seeing an issue of Spawn, the cover looked so cool so I thumbed through it, thinking of buying it. However, the art inside it to me seemed kinda, well, boring. Spaz seems to ease up mostly when he's doing comic art because that's when the art needs to simmer down and tell the freakin story! :) Like his breakdowns and pgs 3-7 in Sonic #82, I loved the fight between Sonic and Chaos because you could easily animate those sequences in your mind and it was easy to tell what was going on (though I didn't appreciate Rebiero's renderings) and the fight between Sonic and Robotnik in Sonic #50 for the same reason. Then there's the Julie-Su story where Spaz renders the characters perfectly and adds so much scenery and makes sure the lines fit together nicely and you still know whats going on. While I think his covers (and sometimes his credit pages) are fantastic, I think comic art is better. -Astal ------ Posted by Dr. Robotnik In Reply to: Current Art Styles I'll say it again. My favorite Sonic comics are between #25-50. I think that the Sonic comic needs to turn back in the direction of issues #25-50. Namely, amusing yet warmer stories. With more American-animation looking art. It's one of the reasons I loved the Knuckles comics. They really reminded me of Sonic #25-50. They were family oriented, it's one of the reasons I liked SatAM, there was a sense that the FF's were a family. The Knuckles comics and Sonic comics that I don't like are the "heck-with-everyone-else" ones(Knuckles #30-32 didn't really have much feeling, I thought, and of course everyone knows I havent liked Sonic issues #53-present). Either a Knuckles #1-29 comic style or a Sonic #25-50 style needs to be reapplied to the Sonic comics. I'd like to see Ken Penders and Mike Gallagher return to head-writing positions; Art Mawhinney, Manny Galán, and Pat Spaziante return to head-artist positions. I'd like to see a kind of In Your Face approach to SEGA's seath grip on Sonic's character. "Sonic shows emotion here OR IT DOESN'T LOOK COOL!"(refers to the many instances of a bland, uncaring looking Sonic, the kind of thing that started in Brave New World where SEGA insisted that Sonic be redrawn on that one page). Especially with the rumors flying around that SatAM will come back in one of three forms(season 3, Direct-to-video, or Theater release), the comic needs to readopt the feel in both writing and art. If JFG is as agreeable as I've heard, then the writing/art staff has the chance they need. Just re-read #25-50 and start turning it back around. Also, dump the SA looks. It looks wrong in the comic, they aren't being drawn right by ANYONE, and if SEGA always thought the comic was a kind of Most-Popular-Print-Ad in the counrty then they're showing it now more than ever. ------ manga manga manga... Posted by Catrina (aka Hotaru) I like manga, but I don't like sloppy art. Sonic comics should keep a good storyline, but should not slack off on the art. There are many good manga, with both good storyline, and good art. *logs off at warp 9.9999999999 to read that recently translated SM manga* ------ Full agreement and more... In Reply to: Just a general question to the masses... posted by Ian the Potto : ...am I the only one who is beginning to NOT like Spaz's work? I mean, yeah, he's still the best of the best, but... : Well, compare Sonic #25 or #30 and Mecha Madness to the latest covers, especially those of the coming SSS #14, StH #85-86. I know it's getting kinda depressing. I loved his old covers, and my favorite Sonic comics("The 3 Phases of E.V.E.", "The Return", and "Rage Against the Machine") have Spaziante as the main artist. His art was fantastic. Now, it's...well...ugly. It's starting to look out of place(of course, I always thought that with all the cycle of artists that have worked on the book, the only 3 that were "in place" were Art Mawhinney, Manny Galán, and Patrick Spaziante's older work). : Now, you start getting this, I dunno, sloppy looking stuff. His last good cover was Sonic #52, IMO. : I mean, StH #85. Look at Sonic's hand as he upper-cuts Silver Sonic Mach 3. If any more updated characters are awkwardly named to indicate the number of times they are faster than the speed of sound... : That has no reality to it at all. It would be a fist, not a clawed hand. Most of his worst work were the covers since Sonic #53(including #53) : In earlier times, Spaz would not have made this kind of oddity. While his work in the Julie-Su solo-story was much more like his old work, That story was fantastic. The writing and art were the best in what turned out to be a book with stories that didn't really seem to go anywhere. : What I'm saying is that his cover-art looks like he's trying to show off, and I don't like it. Neither do I. : Am I alone? NO! : I know he's trying to go for a kind of manga style but...no. One of the most out of place styles that has ever appeared in a Sonic comic. #25-50 were Sonic comics as they should be(with a few exceptions like "LET'S GET small"). Those comics were before the Bollers/Butler/Fry/Maxwell thing occured. Most of the writing was by Ken Penders or Mike Gallagher, most of the art was by Art Mawhinney and Patrick Spaziante. I don't care if Sonic himself is an anime character, the supporting cast of the SatAM cartoon(whose characters the comic is based on)is not. ------ Now that you mention it.... Posted by Sarah-Le Yes, I've noticed a change too, but I'm gonna stay un-opinioated(as much as possible anyway) I'm currently looking into art colleges, and the biggest thing they tell us is too many ppl are going for the anime/manga styles.... and to be honest, the colleges are getting sick of it, they wander what happened to originality..... Yes, anime/manga is nice.... but to really make it you should know how to draw in your own style, with your own method. I was torn apart when I showed my portfolio off....... I had too much cartoon stuff, I do a bit of anime, but turned away from it when a speaker visisted my art class and told us that they were turning away students that had nothing but anime/manga stlyes. Meh, I dun like drawing RL stuff, it seems so........... dull to me..but it's something I have to know how to do, I can do it, I just don't like it. The wider your horizons are, the better your chances of making it are. Oh, and the cover for SSS#14 does look a bit..... crowded..... hopefully it'll look better colored. --- Ja... Posted by Chainspike I can understand with your experience. Also a Class of 2000er, I've been having my portfolio reviewed a lot for college. : I was torn apart when I showed my portfolio off....... I had too much cartoon stuff, I do a bit of anime, but turned away from it when a speaker visisted my art class and told us that they were turning away students that had nothing but anime/manga stlyes. Ouch, torn apart? Hmm... when I went to National Portfolio Day in January, I had a few pieces of cartooning that I was hired for. One of the characters just had spiky hair, and one of the reviewers thought it was Japanese anime style. But it wasn't!! Well, it does show that they're quite touchy about it. : Meh, I dun like drawing RL stuff, it seems so........... dull to me..but it's something I have to know how to do, I can do it, I just don't like it. The wider your horizons are, the better your chances of making it are. Yeah. But me, I like drawing real life stuff. When my studio art class was focusing on life drawing, I excelled in the class. :P Which kinda presents another problem for me... I'm only able to draw things the way I see them, the way they really are, so I don't really have a distinctive "style". It's just realistic, or representative realistic, or whatever. I'm dying to do surrealism pieces and odd things like that, but I feel like my imagination is limited. :P At least the reviewers were impressed at the amount of life drawings I had. And they LOVE life drawings. : Oh, and the cover for SSS#14 does look a bit..... crowded..... hopefully it'll look better colored. Yeah... and is that Julie-Su, the big face at the top right? She looks weird... As for Spaz's art, I agree with Ian the Potto. I liked Spaz's older work better too. Ever since the Sonic Adventure shift, he has drawn Sonic... weird-looking. The face looks EXACTLY the same... CSN cover, Gamefan cover, and Archie Sonic's covers... It's creeping me out. :P ------ Um..... I thought They looked better. *Protects himself from gettin hit* xXDark-CobraXx