Archie .vs SatAM (I know, Cliché subject), where do you stand? Posted by Knicknevin Sometimes, I need to step back and re-assess the situation. If I spend too long in the thick of things I lose sight of everyone else and develop a sort of tunnel vision, only able too see what I hope (or fear) is directly ahead. There is a long running argument about the nature of Sonic and, what my mind has been drifting most often in recent weeks, it's similarities and differences to SatAM. All right, the ground has been pretty much trampled flat about this issue, but after looking things over my thoughts have crystallized and I want to put them down before I lose the details. Let me hypothesize for a few moments, and then I'll explain what I'm thinking. Imagine that Archie gains permission from J.K. Rowling to write a comic book series based on her Harry Potter series of novels. Further, the contract she agrees to gives them free reign with the majority of the characters and situations, with only a few restrictions on how Harry himself and the other core characters are handled. This is all hypothetical, so bear with me. Now, carry this a bit further. The comic has been in print some time now, despite the book series having been completed. The writers, fearing that sales may begin to drop if nothing changes soon, decide to divorce themselves from the old book continuity and blaze a new trail. This is understandable from a viewpoint of sales; when the core material dies all of it's offshoots are at risk as well, so changes are necessary in order keep readers interested. Okay so far? Things are going to get sticky from here. In order to shake up the fan base, the writers decide to start breaking up some of the centermost parts of the established plot. Romances between characters are broken up (Harry or Ron and Hermione a possibility- not sure there), established locations or groups are destroyed or separated (Hogwarts being closed down or destroyed?), and alternatives are introduced. A large chunk of the fan base would be rather upset by this, I'm sure, no matter how it is handled. A division between groups of fans is not unimaginable; One group resisting the changes, protesting that 'It's not like the books', another defending the changes, saying it's Archie's right to do so, and that it 'Wasn't supposed to be like the books anyway'.... I think you can see the comparison I'm trying to draw here. Now, for the point. Riddle me this- when you borrow an established set of characters and situations from another author or writer, characters and situations that are well known and established among the fandom, do you really have the right to change it beyond recognition? Granted, the change going on keeps things interesting, but when will people decide that Archie has changed things too far? When, or if, they decide to protest in an organized manner what will be the trigger? Will it be... When Sally is killed? .... and brought back by some ham-handed plot device? When Robotnik is killed? .... and is replaced by a robitic duplicate? When the Freedom Fighters are abolished? .... and are replaced by some losers called the 'Secret Service'? When Rotor is effectively written out of the story? .... only to be brought back just in time for news of the soon to come 'Loss of one of Knothole's own'? When Sonic and Sally break up? .... and Sally is replaced by a mongoose named Mina? When Sonic gets grounded? .... and sent to school? When the Royal Family decides that they really don't care about taking Mobitropolis back? .... and apparently decide that the war is over? Well, all those have already happened (save the Sonic/Mina thing, which is pending), and I don't smell revolution on the wind. Actually, the first one on that list shook things all the way to the foudations, but none since has generated that level of response. So, I'm left wondering how far the writers will go since there's no organised resistance yet. Granted, the comic is not SatAM. I'll be the first to admit that. I may have drifted over to the comic from the cartoon, but I know that they are two separate entities. However, having taken characters, locations, and situations from SatAM, what I ask is, are the writers obliged to keep some vague resemblance to their roots? Or do they have the right to, having stood on the shoulders of SatAM, take the next step, leaving SatAM behind? I feel that, no matter how long the comic lasts, there should always be some vestiges of the SatAM continuity, if only in homage to the foundation the comic was built upon. Things may change, this is fine. But if change is taken too far, all of the longtime readers will no longer have anything in the comic to relate to; The characters and situations that they have known for 7 or 8 years- have grown up with in many cases- will no longer be recognizable, so what will keep them reading? I'm afraid that if no-one leashes Ken and Karl that they may drive away another big chunk of the readership soon (issue #100 looms), and the comic can't survive losing half of it's readers again. If total sales drop much below 25,000 I doubt Archie will see any reason to continue production... I'm curious to hear what others feel about this... where do you stand in all this? I'm not trying to start a flame war, so keep it civil please... ------ Posted by Ed Dramatically, there really HAS to be the capacity to change. That's part of the reason that SatAM was so successful in the first place, and it WOULDN'T be in line with the original if it didn't change. The question is to how it changes. It's not about who is there, or what happens - it's about whether it maintains the spirit that attracted readers to the comic in the first place. Does it still 'feel' like the original universe – is the present a clear (although different) extrapolation of the state of play back then? It's all a bit of a mess for Archie because really it bases off three universes (Sega, SatAM, AoSTH) with - I believe - a sprinkling of SU and Anime in for good measure. Most of the examples you mention are problems where the creators haven't had enough freedom - Robotnik's return, Sally's resurrection and all associated changes. And since a comic can operate over the long-term it doesn't seem impossible to me for Sonic and Sally to break up and still potentially unite at the end of the day. It's not like in the original SatAM they were joined at the hip - there was certainly a romantic attraction but it took them the whole series to kiss and there were certainly other characters (like Griff) who were contenders at some time or another. Paying homage to SatAM isn't keeping the core of SatAM, it's changing the core but maintaining the tone. Two things, it seems to me from my ignorant position of jumping to catch an odd glimpse over the fence, have proved huge stumbling blocks for the series (at least in modern times): - A load of characters. Like, there seems to be an ENORMOUS number of names. I can't believe, with 32 pages a month (and even before, with an extra 32-page comic a month and quarterly specials) that all these characters get sufficient development. - The mistaking of family for community. This is extremely tenuous and I'm probably wrong, but there seems to be a lot of focus on there being parents, a governmental structure (king, heir, princess), schools etc. Those are the mark of a community. SatAM never had one of them. SatAM's characters however had a very strong bond - that of a family. They all had a relationship that was at different points boisterous, jealous, friendly, protective etc., but was pretty much always underlined with love. If you add parents and relations, surely you complicate the issue. Similarly, if you add a school, surely you blur where the core characters are in relation to one another (which will change). Maybe I'm dead wrong. Certainly, I’m not the most informed on the Archie universe. But what I do know is that this is the hypothetical advice I'd give to the hypothetical 'Harry Potter' comic in a similar message board post. Keep the changing, keep the element of surprise, keep the ability to be daring and do dramatic, shocking and original things... but make clear how point B is a logical development of point A with recourse the fundamental tone and themes that the universe was founded on to begin with. ------ Posted by Slicer : Imagine that Archie gains permission from J.K. Rowling to write a comic book series based on her Harry Potter series of novels. *Slicer grabs two phones. The first is a line direct to his master, to ask for some death squads to kill Rowling for that horrible crime. The second phone goes to his travel agent so he can fly over to Mamaroneck and do THAT meatgrinding himself! He then realizes that Knick's stating a hypothetical situation and puts the phones down, relieved.* : I'm afraid that if no-one leashes Ken and Karl that they may drive away another big chunk of the readership soon (issue #100 looms), and the comic can't survive losing half of it's readers again. Xeno's Paradox. You can't lose ALL your readers by dividing them in half infinitely.. can you? : I'm curious to hear what others feel about this... where do you stand in all this? I'm not trying to start a flame war, so keep it civil please... If you're not trying to start a flame war, this is a hell of a way not to start it. I've been doing not much but steadily berating Archie here, and for one reason alone. I am loyal to THE HEDGEHOG. Period. I have seen quite enough characters get creamed by idiots (Laird/Eastman's Turtles vs the cartoon variety for instance) and I'm NOT going to sit here and watch with no protest as the ass-whooping spiky dude I spent my childhood with gets his blue butt splattered all over the road by a team of clowns whose productions should be limited to crayon drawings only (no offense to the artists good with crayons!). It is a form of mind-censorship. You take the character with abilities and personality, and you squeeze him until there's nothing left but a hollow shell good for marketing and nothing else. What if someone went up to Sonic back in SatAM days and told him "You're going to have to be confined to Knothole someday."? He'd probably either get angry or start laughing, depending on whether or not he actually believed you. And what if someone went to Sally and told her "You'll get your family back, but they're going to give up the fight against Robotnik and seperate you and Sonic for as long as they can, and be total assholes the whole time." Anger, a fierce backhand slap, and a "How DARE you suggest that?!" would almost certainly be the result. Unfortunately, since they're on the wrong side of the fourth wall, they can't give Archie the curb stomping they deserve. And YES I know that Archie's continuity and the SatAM aren't supposed to be the same (thanks for those who told me)- but kids who have seen both will believe that they are, and that's all that really matters. You can't just say "the continuities are different" when using the same character cast and general plotline. ------ Posted by Charles RocketBoy Reilly I like SatAm but I'm more of a Fleetway fan. I've heard all of those things and think a lot of 'em suck. I'd be on the side of SatAm, if it came down to it. Sorry Penders. I'd actually like to write for Sonic but when I wrote to Archie, they never replied. Is ent in a ready-made script and everything... ------ Choose one or the other? Posted by True Red If you're asking which one I'd choose, I'd side with Archie in a heartbeat. Archie has all the SatAM that I feel is really necessary if you get down to it. It has the basic storyline and it's obviously rooted in the SatAM storyline. However, Archie adds things from the other universes that cannot fit in SatAM if it was a strict following of SatAM. Check over at FUS (Fans United for SatAM) and how they're trying to continue SatAM over there. One of the big projects at the moment is the fan game Epoch. One of their biggest obstacles was Knuckles and yes I'm biased in that Knuckles is MAJORLY important to me. They can't fit him in as he is and right now aren't putting him in because of it. That is one of many reasons why I'll always pick Archie over SatAM. Though I'm still playing that game, it's really good (and SatAM is my second fave universe out of the 7). As for the Sonic-side of things, I still think the "online" fans have to realize one thing and that is that we're not that big. Check out how many people actually talk about the comics online and compare it to how many issues are bought. We're a small percentage and it's always possible that something that online readers considered really horrible is considered great by the majority of Archie readers overall and vice versa. I believe in giving writers leeway to do whatever they please and to experiment ideas mainly because I get sick and tired of the same old thing. That's why I got tired of reading Sonic fan fiction on the 'net that is based on SatAM. There's just so long I can see the same basic formula before I get tired of it. Unto the examples: : When Sally is killed? : .... and brought back by some ham-handed plot device? I'm forever grateful that I was NOT online at the time. To tell you the truth when I read Sonic #47 I immediately thought that Dr. Quack was lying and that Sal was just near death and recuperating somewhere. I was totally into Sonic having to prove his innocence and figured once he did that he'd find out that Sal's really alive. That was MY view from being offline WITHOUT "supposed" spoilers. We get spoilers that are sometimes a bit misleading to what actually occurs which is why I say just read the comic and judge. Forget what you hear. : When Robotnik is killed? : .... and is replaced by a robitic duplicate? Big deal. I've never understood what the big complaint here is since Robotnik is Robotnik to me. He just has his required "Sega" look instead of the SatAM look. It doesn't matter to me either way. : When the Freedom Fighters are abolished? : .... and are replaced by some losers called the 'Secret Service'? They weren't "replaced" by the Secret Service. Geoffrey just got a new team. Instead of the Rebel Underground, he has the Secret Service and the SS consists of characters that normally wouldn't get much usage. The FFs were abolished since at the time they HAD Mobotropolis. The FFs are teenagers and if Robotnik hadn't taken over when they were approx. 5 years old they wouldn't have been a fighting team and would've been in school just like their parents were at their ages. I don't see the big deal here. The FFs were reinstated when Robotnik took over and everyone was back in Knothole. : When Rotor is effectively written out of the story? : .... only to be brought back just in time for news of the soon to come 'Loss of one of Knothole's own'? I'm not even addressing this one now. I'm tired of fighting against people who continue to believe something bad is going to happen to Rotor which still is unfounded based on what's going on. : When Sonic and Sally break up? : .... and Sally is replaced by a mongoose named Mina? Big deal. They're only teenagers. Knuckles & Julie-Su could break-up and I wouldn't care in the least. We know they end up together so most of the suspense from it is gone. I'd be more into making an uproar if we didn't know that they end up together. But we know they do and have two kids that'll be a year younger than Lara-Su. So, who cares what they do at the age of 16? : When Sonic gets grounded? : .... and sent to school? That's fine with me. This is taken a bit out of context since you're not mentioning that Sonic's most bitter rival Geoffrey caused him to be grounded with his newfound "control" in Knothole. That whole situation is really interesting in that it's unexpected and it's cool to see Sonic continue to play the rebel. As for the school... : When the Royal Family decides that they really don't care about taking Mobitropolis back? : .... and apparently decide that the war is over? It all makes sense based on the current storyline. Queen Alicia & Elias are removed from Robotnik and the REAL feeling behind the war (and that Robotnik wants to take over the world) so if it's easier to resettle then they'd take it. King Acorn ALSO doesn't know that Robotnik wants to take over the world. So from their perspectives doing what's going on would be easier. Geoff knows better but he's into putting and KEEPING Sonic down so he's not going to clue them in. Sal is the youngest and is just being ignored by her parents since the mother thinks Sal should just be the "pretty" princess and her father is possibly still a little upset with her decision making (she went into space back in Sonic #74 against his wishes; she wouldn't bind with the source in SSS #11; she wouldn't accept an arranged marrigage in Sonic #60) and his own wounded pride. Since the war is over, there's no need for fighting and then it's time for life to become "normal" as if there wasn't a war. Sonic and most of the FFs are school age so obviously that means they'd end up in school. A "wake-up" call is coming for the Acorn family and the glimpses into Robotropolis proves that--even though we can only imagine and not see it yet. Not to say Archie doesn't have it's problems, it does at times, but sometimes to complain about stuff that you don't even know is going to happen is a little premature. I take a wait and see approach. I still find one thing interesting about this. The original usage is actually Sega and SatAM is really the usurper of "messing up" the Sonic formula, not Archie. Someone basically said over at the Mofo once that it's interesting how some of those who are big SatAM fans complain about how different Archie is from SatAM and don't accept that but get very upset when many Sega fans complain about SatAM saying that it's different and refuse to accept it because of that reason. My lengthy 2 cents. ------ I Always Loved The SatAM Version, But... Posted by Ken Penders The one thing just about everyone keeps forgetting is that when the comic first came out, the early issues were basically a cross between the daily Adventures of Sonic syndicated series and the ABC-TV SatAM series. Or rather, it was the SatAM characters featured in stories you'd find in the daily series. Whatever, it was an odd duck when you think of it, but somehow it worked, at least at first. I came aboard with #11, and it wasn't long before I became the driving force to push the comic book into closer alignment with the SatAM series. Once I discovered the show, around the time we were working on stories for issue #16, I felt that was the direction we should be going in with the comic series, a decision which both the editors at Archie and the heads of licensing at Sega concurred with. (In fact, it was this very decision which prompted Sega to test the waters with Princess Sally. Our mini-series was a trial run for a possible game and even a cartoon series.) We basically stayed true to our ties with the SatAM series up until we received word it was cancelled. At that point, I was informed by then-editor Scott Fulop that if history was any indication, then Archie's SONIC series was probably a goner within eight months. Figuring I had nothing to lose, I suggested we take the comics beyond the SatAM series, that we give readers a reason to come back month after month, instead of running in place essentially going nowhere. Since issue #50 seemed so far off at that time, I wrote up an outline suggesting how the series should proceed, culminating with Endgame, the final battle between Sonic and Robotnik. I did this for two reasons, the most important of which was hopefully to convince the publishers to keep the book going until at least that issue, upon which we could at least wrap up all the storylines. The other reason was that if we did keep publishing by some miracle, this would allow us to recast the series into something that wasn't tied to any particular vision but our own. We dared to think long-term at times, and we realized that evolution would be much better than maintaining the status quo. People can argue all they want, but the fact is we're still around, much longer than anyone ever expected us to last, while who knows how many series have been launched and cancelled by numerous publishers in the meantime. One final thought: at this point, if there were to be another Sonic animated series -- or animated film -- chances are it still would be different from the SatAM in a number of ways, and probably more closely aligned with the Sonic Adventure games. Most likely Amy Rose would be a featured character, whereas Princess Sally might not be. ------ A funny thing happened to me on the way to the MB yesterday... Posted by Knicknevin No, this isn't the lead in to a bad joke. Every once in a while I get the odd feeling that, although I don't believe in predestination, that every once in a while people are given a subtle nudge, just enough to make them open their eyes a bit and see something they may not have noticed. In this particular case, when I was about to head upstairs to the computer and take a peek at the MB yesterday afternoon, my mother told me that dinner was about ready. "Okay," I said, figuring dinner wouldn't take too long and then afterwards I would come up and check what was going on. On a whim, I grabbed a tray table and set up in front of the TV, since we weren't eating at the dining room table that day. Flipping through the channels, I stumbled across a movie that had just started a few minutes earlier, which I instantly recognised as 'The Princess Bride', and found myself caught up in it, the MB forgotten. For those of you not familiar with that movie (I suppose these people DO exist somewhere), the basic premise is that, a young boy (played by Fred Savage- don't remember the character's name) is being read a fairy tale by his grandfather (Peter Falk). The story is your basic romance, with just about every cliche' you can think of crammed into it but with a bit of a satirical twist put into it. The dashing Westly, after rescuing his beloved Princess Buttercup , has been captured and imprisoned in a torture chamber called the Pit of Despair. Unfortunatly, after being rescued from his imprisoners, he is found to be dead, killed by the evil Prince Humperdink (well... only MOSTLY dead. Not ALL dead...). At this point, the boy interrupts his grandfather complaining "Grandpa, you're messing up the story!" I couldn't help but laugh as Savage stubbornly refused to accept that Westly was dead, insisting "You're reading it wrong! That isn't fair! He can't be dead, he's got to kill Humperdink and rescue the princess!" When gramps reveals that Humperdink isn't killed, Savage is shocked. "You mean he wins?!? Why did you read me this story?!?" The two argue for some time afterwards before the boy is calmed and the story can continue. If you have it on tape, pop it in and look at that scene- I didn't do a very good job of conveying it here... Regardless, I laughed for quite a while at how true the words rang. I, re-reading my previous post, and some others I've made, see myself as that boy, stubbornly complaining "Keeee~n! Kaaaaa~rl! You're messing up the story!" when things don't turn out quite the way I like... arguing endlessly about the story and the way I think things should turn out... refusing to accept the negative outcome implied midway through the story. Looking back, I realize that even when I thought I was seeing things clearly I still had my horse blinders on, seeing straight ahead only. I got caught up in the tide of negativity and just charged staright ahead, not realizing that I was caught up in the mob mentality that is now shouting for blood. Ah well, I was wrong. Still there are a few issues I'm not happy with, mostly with the rate at which the story currently progresses, but I'm taking another step back and re-evaluating things right now. Although SatAM lives on in our hearts, I suppose it's time to let it rest... ...Gunslinger, I cry your pardon. ------ Posted by Daniel J. Drazen In Reply to: I Always Loved The SatAM Version, But... While I'm glad that Scott Fulop and the conventional wisdom about the book were proven wrong, and while I concede that Archie has the right to retool the continuity without any kind of TV series as a tie-in, let me say once again ... The readers won't mind where you take them so long as they enjoy the ride. And so far, it ain't happening. Karl has taken the "loose" in "loose continuity" to new depths with recent plot developments, and I'm NOT looking forward to Knuckles doing his Incredible Hulk impersonation for the next year. The "loss" of one of the characters in S100 (I'm guessing Uncle Chuck, courtesy of Knuckles acting as what Bob Repas called "a walking EMP generator") simply isn't enough; you need something other than morbid curiosity on the part of the fans to sustain their interest. I wish I could say I was looking forward to future developments, but it's gotten to the point when I see the new issue on the stand there's a part of me that cringes like a whipped dog. ------ Hmm you make a good point... Posted by sonicmike In Reply to: I Always Loved The SatAM Version, But... about if there was another animated Sonic series Ken. Current things are more recognizable me... I was blitzed by Sonic Underground... Didnt see it coming then BAM. Mike ------ Final thought Posted by Dr. Robotnik : One final thought: at this point, if there were to be another Sonic animated series -- or animated film -- chances are it still would be different from the SatAM in a number of ways, and probably more closely aligned with the Sonic Adventure games. Most likely Amy Rose would be a featured character, whereas Princess Sally might not be. And there was another animated series. Sonic Underground, boy was it ever different from SatAM. The big ratings mistake the Sci Fi channel made with it was to show it in L.A. at 4 AM. ------