Eh... this concern about Knuckles' character development of what had happened in the Knuckles series... Posted by Tony Nguyen Eh... I think it went TOO fast. Way too fast. Such as the Echidnaopolis incident. It happened in only Knuckles #4. NUMBER FOUR I SAY! Yes, I know Ken felt like it gave Knuckles no interacting enough (or something like that) without a city but so early in the series? But I'm not supposed to stress that yet, maybe in the future. But anyway, Knuckles is now too... different from the one we all knew and loved from the beginning of the series. In other words, there's so much character development that Knux doesn't feel the same as he used to. What I feel is changed? Knuckles just isn't edgy anymore... and I feel he should be. And Sonic and Knuckles should have more conversations like the end of "Turnabout Heroes". And probably argue and fight more often, even though they both should know they're friends. So all I think is needed is his edge... what happened to it? Examples? In Knuckles #31, if I knew Knuckles, I doubt Knuckles would've walked into the ship unless he had a cause to, and if there was a cause in this, it doesn't convince me. Just because Hunter said "Come!" It's like he's sorta... weakened... bah... but I really liked that picture of Knuckles on the bottom of Page 9. Hmm... and I think a Mobian Polar Bear would look different than that. Ever heard of Bark the Polarbear? He's an official SegaSonic character you know =) Do some research. --- Posted by Ken Penders In Reply toTony Nguyen You have a point, Tony, and with KNUCKLES: THE BEST OF TIMES, THE WORST OF TIMES, I take some serious steps to restoring some of that edge. Justin and I were discussing this very subject the other week, noting how the character has evolved since readers first met him. That evolution was a natural part of his progression as each new story came out. The interesting part of that discussion was both of us were agreement in total agreement of why he wasn't so edgy now and what we had to do to get it back. In many ways, it goes back to my earlier thing about Sonic and Princess Sally. While I no longer believe Sally should be killed off, I'm no longer certain if Sonic is a one-girl guy. When you stop and think how Sega looks at the character, he's all ego and attitude. He thinks about number one. He can accept Tails because Tails is the subordinate junior assistant to his main act. He'd consider Sally nothing more than a fun to be with every now and then (if that) and a drag the rest of the time. His attitude towards Sally, and females in general, in probably much like that MTV-character in the movie She's All That. The way he ditches the girl is so Sonic-like. ("You think all I want to do is spend my life with you? That's cool and all, but I gotta go fight Robotnik! Later, babe!") I know I'm going to get into a lot of disagreement with people over this, but I've yet to hear anyone ever say "Y'know, he can be such an arrogant jerk, but he's really quite lovable under all that!" They usually stop the comment after the word "jerk". People who are conceited and full of themselves generally aren't likeable. Check out most entertainers and athletes as my prime example. There are exceptions, but there are few and far between. (And I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of being arrogant if I dare disagree with anyone's opinion, or not answer their IM or e-mail. It has nothing at all to do with arrogance, and everything to do with lack of time.) So hang in there, Tony, and let me know if I get it right or not. --- Well, yer kinda wrong on one point...^^;;; Posted by Pepper-Jie Yeah, Sonic can be an arrogant jerk, but I've always loved him :p I kinda got used to that attitude (the way he acted w/ Amy Rose in the games). It was even a little visible in some areas of the SatAM show. Truthfully, I'd like him better if the issue of settling down n having kids with Sally WASN'T such a sure thing =/ I like Sally, but I really dunno if she's the right person for him. Like you said, too, it's hard to imagine him settling down and taking on that "ball and chain". And an old-timer like you saw "She's All That"?! jk! ;) --- Two Words - AMY ROSE..... Posted by Jonathan WB Gray You know - I seriously feel what Tony says as well. Knux has lost a lot of edge he's had. I DONT think its because of Julie-Su (She has kept the edge that Knux seems to have lost) BUT Knux is no longer the Knux that was edgy, a bit of a punk attitude wise and overall the badass "kick your ass and take no names" kinda guy. I think that REALLY needs to be brought back. Its a vital part of who Knuckles is as a character : While I no longer believe Sally should be killed off, I'm no longer certain if Sonic is a one-girl guy. When you stop and think how Sega looks at the character, he's all ego and attitude. Which is the exact same way he treats Amy Rose in SegaSonic. I do think he has feelings for Saly, but I think his pride and ego get in the way. And if Amy were to ever become more prominent in the series (as she will be soon) I could see her becoming a much larger rival against Sally for her affections on Sonic... People say Amy Rose would make a horrible girlfriend because she's so linear in some aspects. But they fail to see a very vital part of her: Sally wants to settle down and has patience and brains, Amy is a bit superficial but always wants to go on adventures. To Sonic both of them have bad quality traits in one department and good in the other but what one girl lacks the other one has. Sally, introduced in SatAM, is the patience and calm Sonic needs in his life. Amy, introduced in Sega Sonic, is the adventurer (notice how she always wants to tag along in the excitement and usually drags Sonic into more trouble the adventure was when it started - Sonic CD and Metal Sonic being a prime example). She has a crush on Sonic not just to simply have a crush, but because she adores his lifestyle. Carefree and on the go JUST LIKE she said in Sonic Adventure. She wants to have that life so she tags along behind Sonic at every chance she gets. She's also an ego feeder, and someone that can share in Sonic's adventures that he likes to have - so she's really more dimensional than people think. Its a really interesting development if you think about it that hasnt been touched yet in the comics. And this brings the girl issue back into the folly. I dont think the question is who makes the better girlfriend, but more the question is can Sonic ever make up his mind on deciding which one is better if he ever gets his ego out of his behind. :::He thinks about number one. He can accept Tails because Tails is the subordinate junior assistant to his main act. Personally I see him more as an "adopted little brother" figure. Especially since ALL of Tails family is either roboticised or has vanished into that same mystical limbo Athair is in - Merlin Prower anyone? ^_^ And we've seen no trace of his mom passed birth? Perhaps she died right after birth...It seems fitting to me for some reason... :::He'd consider Sally nothing more than a fun to be with every now and then (if that) and a drag the rest of the time. His attitude towards Sally, and females in general, in probably much like that MTV-character in the movie She's All That. The way he ditches the girl is so Sonic-like. ("You think all I want to do is spend my life with you? That's cool and all, but I gotta go fight Robotnik! Later, babe!") Which is where Amy comes in again. While Sally is so busy wanting to settle down and make nookie (LOL ! I just had to say that ^_^) Amy Rose WANTS to go on the adventures with Sonic. It would for GOOD story stuffs... : I know I'm going to get into a lot of disagreement with people over this, but I've yet to hear anyone ever say "Y'know, he can be such an arrogant jerk, but he's really quite lovable under all that!" They usually stop the comment after the word "jerk". People who are conceited and full of themselves generally aren't likeable. AMEN BROTHER! :::Check out most entertainers and athletes as my prime example. **coughcough DENNISRODMAN coughcough** There are exceptions, but there are few and far between. (And I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of being arrogant if I dare disagree with anyone's opinion, or not answer their IM or e-mail. It has nothing at all to do with arrogance, and everything to do with lack of time.) Thats really petty coming from some people if you ask me. After all, people need to understand you have both a professional schedule and a life to maintain so I find nothing unreasonable about that. Though a quick "hello, I'm really busy right now call back later" would be nice ^_^ : So hang in there, Tony, and let me know if I get it right or not. I'll stick around too and place my input here and then. I find it all very interesting Jonathan H. Gray The Dubba Dubba WB Sonic HQ - http://sonichq.cjb.net --- Posted by Pepper-Jie In Reply to: Two Words - AMY ROSE..... posted by Jonathan WB Gray Well... don't scream n yell at me, but... I kinda always wished that Sonic WOULD go with Amy...~.~;;; She seems to be a lot more adventurous and fun-loving than Sally (i.e, Sally has seemed waaaaaaaaay too much on edge lately. It's understandable, but wouldn't Sonic be rather turned off by that attitude? Hmm...) Well..uhm...that's all I say... for now...c.c;;; *backs away n prepares to be whacked n screamed at* x.x --- Does This Mean... Posted by Charmy Bee ...that you're going to have Knuckles dump Julie-Su and Sonic cheat on Sally? That's how your answer COULD be read. I mean, most people who hate Julie-Su hate her because they credit her with making Knuckles loose his "edge". I don't agree, she's awesome, and he's MORE awesome now that he's starting to get into a real relationship and THINK before he leaps. A smart hero is much more interesting than a stupid one. As for Sonic not being a "one-woman guy", OOOOHHHHH BOY! does that EVER sound like "cheat"! The instant I read those words, I saw Sally SMACKING Sonic across the face because he came home with blonde hairs on his shoulder and lipstick on his face... (Who the blonde hair belongs to I'm sure I don't know. The only thing even CLOSE to a blonde femme in Sonic is Barby Koala...) Let me tell you, the way Sonic is NOW, I can stand him. I don't really LIKE him, but I can stand him. He IS an arrogant jerk, BUT....that's only the surface. He really IS decent inside, and when it comes right down to it, he'd help an enemy who was in horrible pain; he'd be nice to someone he normally makes fun of if he saw them crying all alone in the woods, etc. Well, at least that's the way _I_ see him. A big ego inside of a big heart. :) HOWEVER...if you EVER have him cheat on (by which I mean, go out with another girl in a "date" kinda way rather than just another Freedom Fighter mission) Sally, or dump her, or start going through all the girls 'cos he fancies himself a ladies' man, so HELP me, I will totally hate his guts forever and not buy any more of the comics. Men who treat women like dirt ARE jerks. Through and through. With NO redeeming qualities. Yes, I am a feminist, and your point is...? :( ...Notorious --- Posted by Ken Penders In Reply to: Does This Mean... posted by Charmy Bee Without giving the game away, I have no intention of dumping Julie-Su. (I've already said she plays a very prominent part in KNUCKLES: TWENTY YEARS LATER, so I'm not going to back track on that.) Go back and reread my earlier post carefully, as I've said nothing in regards to Knuckles' relationship with Julie-Su in any sense. For one thing, I didn't consider it relevant in regards to Sonic's attitude with females. He's a different character and his relationship is different with Julie-Su's than Sonic's is with Sally. Second, I don't consider Julie-Su the reason Knuckles has lost his edge, but I don't wish to go into that now until after SSS #14. I'd end up giving away too many spoilers in the process. : As for Sonic not being a "one-woman guy", OOOOHHHHH BOY! does that EVER sound like "cheat"! The instant I read those words, I saw Sally SMACKING Sonic across the face because he came home with blonde hairs on his shoulder and lipstick on his face... Whoa! Let's describe in what sense of the word "cheat" is being used here. Sonic, to all intents and purposes, has no commitment to Sally other than being a true blue friend and loyal subject, period. He has never exchanged wedding vows nor even mentioned the word "relationship". Sonic is not beholden to Sally in a romantic sense, even if she wishes it were so. I understand where you're coming from, but what Sonic and Sally currently have is not a lifelong commitment that a husband and wife would have, no matter how much a lot of readers would like it that way. : Let me tell you, the way Sonic is NOW, I can stand him. I don't really LIKE him, but I can stand him. He IS an arrogant jerk, BUT....that's only the surface. He really IS decent inside, and when it comes right down to it, he'd help an enemy who was in horrible pain; he'd be nice to someone he normally makes fun of if he saw them crying all alone in the woods, etc. Well, at least that's the way _I_ see him. A big ego inside of a big heart. :) I never said Sonic doesn't have feelings. I'm just saying he has a lack of consideration for others that easily displays itself at times, and needs to be whumped on the side of the head at times in order to remind him that he should think of others first. He may be a hero in every sense of the word, but he'd be a boring hero without his inherent flaws. : HOWEVER...if you EVER have him cheat on (by which I mean, go out with another girl in a "date" kinda way rather than just another Freedom Fighter mission) Sally, or dump her, or start going through all the girls 'cos he fancies himself a ladies' man, so HELP me, I will totally hate his guts forever and not buy any more of the comics. Men who treat women like dirt ARE jerks. : Through and through. : With NO redeeming qualities. : Yes, I am a feminist, and your point is...? Men who abuse women in any sense are jerks. UNMARRIED men -- and women -- who decide that a relationship is not working for whatever reason are being reasonable in calling it quits before things get any further like marriage, kids and divorce. Once that lifetime commitment gets made, with his and her becoming us, then if one partner leaves the other for someone else are there grounds for calling them jerks. There is a reason for the dating process. It's to discover if two people are compatible to face life together over the long run. If you wake up one day and decide you can't, you're a lot better off being honest before any ceremonies than after. Sonic and Sally aren't even dating. Sonic won't even refer to Sally as his girl friend. This is a relationship?!! I think not, and neither would you if someone you loved acted the same towards you. If Sonic ever dated anyone else, it's not because he fancies himself a ladies man. He'd more likely think any girl would simply want the privilege of spending time with him. And if she ever did try to tie him down, he'd be gone in a flash. ---- Say what??.... Posted by Sonicboom13 What are you saying?? Sonic doesn't care about Sally?? Hold on here let's back track. In Endgame. Sonic Practically went INSANE when he though Sally was killed!! Now, if Sonic didn't have any feelings in that sense for Sally they WHY DID HE REACT THAT WAY?? That totally makes no sense!! --- Posted by Ken Penders In Reply to: Say what??.... posted by Sonicboom13 Not at all. Relationships are a very complex thing. Sonic does indeed care very much for Sally, as he would normally do for a sibling or very close friend. He more than likely cares for her in a very special way, but it took something like the scenario in ENDGAME for him to even come close to admitting it. Think about it. It isn't until he thinks he's lost her for good does he finally contemplate what she means to him. Even then, once it's back to business as usual, he gets the ol' wanderlust and goes searching for high adventure, giving not a hoot to what Sally feels. Sonic could just as easily remain friends with Sally while dating someone else. She might not like it, some readers won't like it, but it would be true to his character if such a scenario did come about. --- Posted by True Red In Reply to Ken Penders That's not true. Sonic definitely cares about how Sally feels. If he didn't, then he wouldn't be jealous of the attention Sally gave Geoffrey St. John (Sonic #31) or of the attention he thought Sal might be giving Knux (in Super vs. Hyper Special). The only problem with Sonic (& Knux for that matter) is that he doesn't know how to express his feelings in a comfortable way. That's natural for all teenagers, but he does CARE. If he's not supposed to care about Sally feelings, it's not presented that way at all. Of course in "Endgame" or any situation where he thought he might never see Sal again Sonic would go crazy. One of the reasons would be the guilt of not saying anything before. That's natural. It's hard for guys to say things to girl, especially when it comes to love. One of the reasons I liked the "First Date" arc was that it was so realistic with Knux' problems trying to talk to Julie, and it was funny at parts, too. : Sonic could just as easily remain friends with Sally while dating someone else. She might not like it, some readers won't like it, but it would be true to his character if such a scenario did come about. If that happened, you'd be doing what some people say is Archie comics forte: love triangles. Everyone knows about that tired love triangle between Archie, Betty, & Veronica. If Sonic dated someone else other than Sally, the Archie, Betty, & Veronica triangle would be created again. I say again because IMHO there was a love triangle in Sonic comics between Sally, Sonic, & Geoffrey. Sonic has never thought about any other girl except Sally in all the stories I've read. I haven't been reading from the beginning of the comic, but based on what I've read it isn't true to Sonic's character to date around. --- --- Thank you! Posted by True Red In Reply to: Does This Mean... posted by Charmy Bee I totally agree with everything that you said! Ken, I don't mind giving Knux back some of his "edge," even though I don't think he lost it to begin with but since so many people keep saying that, I'll try to see things from their POV. I first met him in Sonic #39, but I quickly learned that he was an attack first, ask questions later kind of guy. The reason I liked him over Sonic was that he was learning to use his head and was actually starting to do it (of course not knowing anything about Knux helped too, I love the mysterious types). I still don't think that just because Knux uses his brain that he's lost his edge. I agree with Tony that it should take more than someone telling Knux "Come" for Knux to follow that person (unless it's his family or a friend). I do think that Knux should of said something as a retort, but I can't completely comment because I haven't seen Knuckles #31 yet. It's at my house, and I'm on campus. I won't see the issue until Thanksgiving break. Any other examples of Knuckles supposedly losing his edge I can easily prove that he hasn't. When I see Knux #31, I'd probably be able to show that he hasn't lost his edge in that issue as well. But until I see it...I have to go on what I hear (why isn't anyone talking about that issue anyway?) I'm not even going to comment on the dumping Julie-Su bit, if that actually happened I'd have to go back to reading Marvel comics instead, which I haven't read since Knuckles got his book. I used to only read Marvel. Knux & Julie together forever! The first time I saw Julie-Su was on the cover of Knuckles #5, the first issue I got of the Knuckles series (thanks to the wonders of back issue ordering I have every issue now though). The first thing I said when I saw her was "This girl should be Knuckles girlfriend." When I got to know her better, her personality only confirmed what I thought when I first saw her. The reason I first met Knuckles in Sonic #39 is well, until I read Archie comics, I COMPLETELY ignored Sega games & systems. When Sega & Nintendo first came out, I loved the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon show (I still do). Nintendo came out with TMNT video games, but Sega didn't. I went with Nintendo and I still refused to get anything that dealt with Sega, even when Sega finally came out with TMNT video games. Out of boredom one Saturday morning, I watched the SatAM cartoon show on ABC and I actually liked it. That's when I came to like Sonic a little, but not enough to buy a Sega game. SatAM goes of the air and I miss the FFs. One day, I walk into a Genovese drug store and I see for the first time Archie's Sonic series (book #37 to be exact). I was surprised and thrilled because I saw Sal & Uncle Chuck on the cover so the first thing I thought was that it's based on SatAM. I know now that there are a lot of differences, the main one being the existence of Knuckles who I met in Sonic #39. That issue hooked me into the Archie comics, cause I still wasn't sure if I'd keep spending the $1.50 every month. Then, my family went on vacation, which made me miss Mecha Madness, but I found Rites of Passage part 3. That issue made me like Knuckles more than Sally, Sonic, or any other character period and he's remained my fave character to this day. That issue also got me to find a Sega Genesis so that I could play as Knuckles in the video games. So you can tell Sega, that Archie comics have gotten them some money and fans.